Your BPO Sales Team Can’t Sell the Future with Yesterday’s Playbook

Amanda Quinn 0:00
Welcome to Build a Better BPO. The podcast where we help business process outsourcers break free from the one size fits all approach and build stronger, more profitable businesses.

Milan Batinich 0:10
If you're a BPO leader looking to improve margins, reduce employee churn, and create long-term client relationships, you're in the right place.

Amanda Quinn 0:18
I'm Amanda Quinn. I'm a principal at Quinn Growth Advisors. I help BPOs refine their positioning, market their expertise, and move beyond the outdated labor arbitrage model.

Milan Batinich 0:28
And I'm Milan Batinich, CEO of Milan Motivates. I help BPOs and CX leaders build stronger and happier teams by improving employee engagement and retention.

Amanda Quinn 0:38
Each episode, I will bring you insights out of strategies and real-world examples to help you stand out in the BPO space, attract better fit clients, and build a more sustainable business.

Milan Batinich 0:49
We're cutting through the noise with actionable takeaways. No fluff, no vague theories, just proven strategies from industry experts and BPO leaders who are making it happen.

Amanda Quinn 0:58
So if you're ready to build a better BPO, let's dive in. Well, we are here today with Paul Smith from Smith Slaughter Consulting. Paul, welcome to Build a Better BPO.

Paul Smith 1:25
Thank you.

Amanda Quinn 1:29
Yeah, we're so happy to have you. Paul and I connected a few weeks ago over LinkedIn because the con my content was reaching him, and we realized that we had a lot of synergies, and that kind of has evolved into us having a bunch of conversations about BPOs and their sales process. And I wanted him to come on today to talk to our audience because I think what he has to share is amazingly breathtaking and incredibly helpful. And we're so lucky to have him. So thank you so much, Paul, for joining us.

Amanda Quinn 2:09
So, Paul, what made you start Smith Slaughter, your consulting firm?

Paul Smith 2:14
Well, the reason I started is, you know, I have an interesting career. I would say two-thirds of my career has been in technology sales and marketing, and a third of my career have been has been in BPOs. And so in that process, technology changes pretty regularly, right? So there's constant change. And so there's transform transformative technologies that are coming out regularly. Your customers are looking for them. You have to learn them well enough to have a good conversation with your customer about them. And um so so a large part of my career has been on this disruptive technology track, right? Where you have to change your processes. Um, I'm a little old, right? So, you know, I was there for the SaaS, for the software license to SaaS change, right? The on-prem software world to the to the um online world, the SaaS world, right? And so when all those changes, there's been a transformation that had to take place, right? The way that you sold had to change. You had to constantly be reinforcing with your customer in the SaaS world why they were working with you. Um, and then on top of that, I I started a company that sold software to contact centers. And my conversations there were very different than what I was seeing in the BPO market. Um, a lot of the sales structures that I see in the BPO market are based on the customer initiating a conversation about something they've identified that they want to do. Um, and so a lot of the BPO sales that I saw were basically just responding to requests that had already been formulated by the customer. And that's been going on for quite a while. And this industry has been pretty lucky that they've been able to use that same model for decades. But what I didn't see was an understanding in BPOs of what the transition needs to look like. What's different about what you're selling based as opposed to what you were selling before? What does your competition look like in selling this new thing, right? So, so specifically in technology, you know, technology companies are pretty good at marketing and selling their products, and they've been doing it for a long time. So when you come into that space, you can't come in with the concept, this is just the add-on, because the people you're competing against, right? The people that are bringing these technologies to your customer are very well versed on how to do that. And BPOs aren't. And so I saw a need for organizations to change the way they work with their salespeople, right? Because it is so different, and also for salespeople to learn how to have a different conversation with their customer. And so as I looked at that, it's kind of a combination, right? It's a combination of organizational change that impacts sales. So that's where I thought that that's the reason that I kind of started Smith Slaughter. And I have um a lot of sales background, so I can kind of connect those two. And I've sat at that C-level table for quite a bit of my career.

Amanda Quinn 5:26
That's awesome. And you're saying that this moment has arisen now because BPOs are really for the first time going head to head with technology companies in the sales process. Is that what you're saying? That's kind of the shift here.

Paul Smith 5:40
Yeah, and what I'm saying, and and so here's what I see a lot in BPOs that I that right that I've worked with is the customers coming to them and saying, hey, I found this new technology, or I heard about this new technology, or someone talked to me about this new technology, and now they're coming to the BPO and saying, What do you have that is similar to that, or how are you going to help me make that move? Right. And as a BPO that's never had to do that before, the story is pretty weak, right? It's sort of a, we do that too. Not understanding that when I was selling software to contact centers, I was selling chat, online chat, right? So my conversation was with a higher level person, and I was talking about reducing their costs and increasing the consistency of the product they were delivering from the contact center. Very different conversation than talking about average hold times and that sort of thing. When I'm talking to the president or VP of operations, they're not that interested in that information. What they want to know is this line item continues to get bigger on me. And I don't see it going down. And I don't think that BPOs understood that a hundred thousand dollar line item, especially in the small and medium market or even the lower enterprise market, is probably the biggest line item on their P&L, right? And so they're constantly looking at that and thinking, this thing keeps going up, and I have to control that cost. Meanwhile, we're the BPO sitting there saying, You hoo! I got a hundred, I got 10 more seats, right? And it's like you're not helping your story by talking to that same contact center manager about average hold times and CSAT scores, because that doesn't ring true for the person that's looking at the P&L. And so that software guy is coming in and talking to them about how they can lower that cost by using technology. A very different conversation. And if you're not having that conversation, it's just a matter of time. Now, my perspective is that this will become a technology first market sooner than later because of the advent of AI, right? Where you're gonna have to lead with that. The people are a backup, right? But the volumes of work that has to be done is gonna be done by this automation. And I'll give you an example. When I was uh conversational AI world, the first client I worked with was Blue Cross Blue Shield. And I talked to the CEO there, and what he said to me was, I can't afford to continue to increase the number of people that I have in my contact centers. So I would like to look at using your technology as a way to lower that number so that that line item is not so big because I need to use that money for other things. Um, you know, with the advent of Obamacare and things like that, where they're doing, you know, their market changed. And so he's saying, I don't want to keep adding. And that wasn't a conversation that the contact center person was having.

Amanda Quinn 9:03
Right, right.

Paul Smith 9:05
So all he saw was I have a thousand contact center agents, and I keep, and and you're talking to me about adding another thousand, which made him look at that line item and say, I have to figure out a way to lower this this cost. You gotta be having that conversation, you know.

Amanda Quinn 9:25
Yeah. And typically this has been where BPOs will open up a region, a new region, right? Or say, I'll I'll find a partnership in a cheaper area to make that next 1,000 less expensive than the current 1,000, or find a way to help you make the cost per interaction lower, right? But I think what you're saying now is that the market is demanding like true leverage coming from the contact center. Like we we can't just continue with the status quo and BPOs that don't recognize that this is the the moment right now and don't change their the way that they do sales as a result are going to be completely kind of uh passed over.

Paul Smith 10:11
Yeah, yeah. They're not gonna be able to compete with the conversations that people are having, right? So so as you're thinking, I'll give you another example. I I use a lot of examples. But I was talking to a client and he said, you know, he's using he's using a a he's implemented a technology in his contact center. And he's done a really good job at looking at the numbers. And what he found was that he's paying a dollar eighty-seven transaction for an agent and 38 cents for every that same transaction using automation. It's only a matter of time before those people are gonna start working those numbers, right? And and because the software companies are really good at those cost justification conversations, that's what they're talking to these people about. And they're going out at a higher level, right? They're not talking to the content contact center manager because there's no opportunity there. They're going up a step higher. And our salespeople in the BPO space need to be comfortable having those conversations.

Milan Batinich 11:17
So that does. Yeah. Paul, from a BPO's perspective, then how do they get the BPO get their salespeople comfortable having those conversations? Where they're not speaking to, say, the director of CX anymore, the contact center managers, but they're going that level up or talking to people in the technology space at the organization. I think that I think there's a couple of ways to approach that, right?

Paul Smith 11:40
I think one is is you have to do a really do an examination of what your capabilities are, right? The reality is the people that got you where you are often aren't the people that are going to get you to where you want to go, right? So you have to decide do I have the manpower, do I have the staff to be able to make this change? Can my salespeople make that call? Do I have a technical support person who can have that deep conversation with someone who's in the technical world, right? Where the where does one start and where does one end? Do I have the people in the background that once the customer says yes, do I have the capability of really implementing what I talked about? Right. So so one of the things that's key to me is organizations to understand that this, you got to go back to a different place, right? You have to look at the organization and how you're supporting what you do with your sales force, right? So I think in most cases, it's gonna be a lot of switch outs. Unfortunately, I think there's gonna be a set of people who have been doing, you know, we both know, we all know. You go to these conferences, right, and you talk to some of these people with BPOs, and they've been doing it for 25 years, the exact same length, right? Um, some of those people are not gonna be able to transition. It's just, it's not, it's not gonna be possible. For some of the other people, and I hate to say this, but for some of the younger people who have grown up in this in technology, you probably have a better chance with them. But I think there's you're gonna see a lot of turn, there needs to be turnover there. And you have to make sure that you have people on your sales team that are comfortable having those conversations, that know how to do that outreach to that level, who understands business as opposed to just the metrics of the contact center, right? So one way is is you just do it, you you you evaluate your talent and you make some tough calls and say, I have some people that are just not gonna be able to make this change. Or I think another option is you take that group part of your business and you make it a separate part of your business and you build an organization around that, right? One of my favorite books is Zone to Win. Um, and what it talks about is don't try to take your new business and meld it with your old business. Because what's going to happen is you're using the wrong KPIs, you're using them with the wrong metrics for that new business, and it doesn't give the new business an opportunity to succeed, right? And how does that how does that reflect in our world, right? Comp plans it that where you're getting paid the same for selling technology as you are paying for butts and seats. Well, you know what? If you buy technology at $5,000 a month, it's not a big enough commission at 3, 2, 1, right, for a salesperson to really want to sell that, right? I'm gonna sell 10 seats because I'm gonna make a lot more money. Those sort of things. So so am I answering your question, Milan?

Milan Batinich 14:53
Yeah, no, that yeah, absolutely. That's perfect.

Amanda Quinn 14:56
Yeah, and that's those sound like huge changes for an organization to be making, like for BPOs to be not only because you're talking about the sales side of it, of the changing the sales organization and the incentive structure and the kind of providing some training, I would imagine, around just overall putting together business cases and thinking through what the sales process should look like in order to not just become, you know, recognizing deals when someone puts their hand up and says, I need some warm bodies at some price point. Can you match that basically? But also just on the business side, the what is the technology that you're implementing and where and how are you are you creating it or are you reselling it? Like there, these are huge seismic shifts that are happening for COs right now.

Paul Smith 15:49
They are, and you know what? And so, Amanda, like so when I when I saw your posts, right? One of the first things that came to mind for me was this is exactly what you got to do in order to make this shift. Other it's otherwise it's seismic, right? It's if you if you're trying to be in 10 industries and you're trying to do this simultaneously in 10 industries, good luck, right?

Amanda Quinn 16:14
Because if you look at a vertical company, I can see what happens because I've I'll just interject there for a second, Paul. I can tell you what happens because I feel like I have this conversation weekly with the BPO that I'm talking to, where they're trying to be in a bunch of different industries, solving a bunch of different problems, and they have selected their maybe one or two vendors that they like for point solutions. And they've decided those, they've contracted with those, they've tried to sell them into their installed client base with zero luck at all. And they're baffled as to why that's not happening. And it's like, well, you tried to tried to shove like a round peg in a square hole, basically, because hoping that it would satisfy the average client you have, but no client unto themselves is average. They all have bespoke needs and and challenges, and one technology cannot rule them all when it comes to this.

Paul Smith 17:10
Yeah, right. When you look at, and I think that's one of the things where BPOs that I think it's sort of a the situation is I want to make this easy for me to make this transition, right? I want I want to say, oh, this isn't that big of a deal, right? I can find that one vendor that does it and I can use it for everybody. Without an understanding that, no, that's not the way it really works. Each one of these verticals has a whole set of technologies that is used primarily by that vertical. And they're different from one vertical to the other, right? So so you can't go into healthcare without um, you know, being able to interface with all the EMR systems that are out there, right? Epic, if you can't, you're not gonna be able to work with a bunch of companies. So you gotta have expertise there, right? Because your user has expertise there. And so trying to do this, I'm gonna be one shot for, you know, I'm gonna use Salesforce.com for everybody, not necessarily, right? Uh consumer goods has amplified, they use that. Different industries use different software, and I think we try the BPO industry is trying to dumb it down to something they understand, and it's like you've got a rowboat in the ocean here because there's a bunch of people out there that know how to do this, and they're coming after you. I mean, I was a small company, and it was so easy for me to cost justify buying my product rather than continuing on the way that you were doing it. So if you get some of these larger behemoths out there doing it, you got no chance of competing. Does that make sense?

Amanda Quinn 18:48
Yeah, 100%. I completely agree. Yeah. Milan, from your perspective, having been uh a BPO salesperson in the last year, let's just say. What were the challenges for you in or kind of what do you envision being a lot of the challenges of making the shift, kind of being on the front lines of I'm gonna guess, I'll put it out there. Like you're probably not getting a ton of strategic direction from your executives. You know, they're probably saying go into this vertical and go steady. And maybe in two months we'll switch it and say another vertical. But let's just say like, go into utilities, Milan. And now I want you to compete against technology companies that are also going after utility companies. Like what is that like?

Milan Batinich 19:36
Yeah, I Paul, I think you said it best when you said uh, you know, BPOs need to recognize that the people that got them here may not be the same people that will get them there, which is completely accurate. You know, uh I was I think about the last couple BPOs I was with. Um Amanda, to your point, it was exactly that. It's like, hey, you've sold butts and seats for years. So like tap into your network, but try to sell them this new technology, either that is white labeled or it's one that we're building ourselves. And then if that doesn't work, then yeah, let's pick a specific industry and let's try to wiggle our way into this industry that we've never worked in before. Which number one, when you're sold, when you're used to selling one thing and you're not given training on how to sell something new, like a new technology, it makes it very difficult. You know, I would get on calls with people and they're like, this is sounds great. What you send me sounds great. This is amazing. So happy for you. How does it work? I'm like, I have no idea, no clue how it works. Let me try to figure that out. But I I'm gonna be honest with you, I have a relationship with you for the last decade. I have no idea how this works. Right, right, yes, yes. Paul, to your point, I was probably the uh, I I got us here, but I can't get us there without the proper uh training um or learnings. And then yeah, Amanda, to your point, it it was focused on, let's focus on this industry that we've never been a part of, but because they're embracing technology, we can try to be successful. And then when that doesn't work after one or two months, and it's like, okay, let's switch and try a different industry. And when that doesn't work, okay, let's switch and try a different industry. And you just continue down the same path of, you know, we can do it all, even though we're trying to focus on specific industries, but we change direction when the ROI doesn't come immediately. And that's the other thing, yeah.

Amanda Quinn 21:21
We change direction when the ROI doesn't come immediately. Yeah, right, exactly.

Paul Smith 21:26
Well, you know, and the sad part, and the sad part is that's that's what Milan's saying is is exactly what's happening, right? It's sort of like, well, this thing has to pay for itself in two months. It's like, sorry guys, but people have been selling technology for 30, 40 years, too. You can't go into their, you can't just jump into their pond and think you're gonna be the big fish. It just doesn't work that way.

Milan Batinich 21:50
Yeah, Paul, to your point, like amplify is the go to, the known vendor for consumer goods or consumer services. And then if you're trying to break into that area, Yeah, you have somebody that's been there for decades that has mastered it, that is the go-to for all of those organizations. I mean, I I worked with somebody, she was with an organization for 10 or 11 months, and they changed her role and her focus so many times at the end they're like, Well, you weren't successful. She's like, How do you expect me to be successful? I I was selling eight different things at eight different times in 10 months. You had me changing every five weeks.

Paul Smith 22:26
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And you bring up another point, and this is a real big one for me. Here's what I've seen, right? Sitting there as the head of sales, right? And kind of walking into an organization, you know, in Milan, I'm sure, and in Newfoundland Contact Centers, they're not quick to change, right? No. So this is the way we've done it. So this is the way we're gonna do it, right? So now you're doing, you're saying, okay, now we're gonna we're gonna start doing lead generation. So we're gonna keep, so it's pretty much like customer service. We're gonna do it the exact same way, right? Whether you're successful or not, you're gonna keep selling it. So now that's a one-hour meeting, right? That at the salespeople get one hour, they tell you that, now go out and sell it, right? So now you have technology and you take salespeople and you put them in a room for an hour, and you slam all this information into them in that hour. Now go out and sell it, right? Now that salesperson has never touched the software, they've never done a demo of the software, no one's told them how it integrates with the other services that they're providing. You just figure it out, right?

Milan Batinich 23:39
Yeah.

Paul Smith 23:40
Meanwhile, when I was selling software and then we had a new package, it was one week of training with the technical training, sales training, marketing materials, the whole it was a package that I was given that, and I had a sales engineer who was burst on the software, right? Who I could pass those questions to. I don't understand, it's so unfair to the salesperson to expect them to be able to do that. Like Milan says, I can tell you a great story, but don't ask me any questions about it because now I'm lost. Right? Like I was in a call once with a salesperson, we're talking about technology, and the guy says, Well, is it in Python? And the rep's like, what the hell is Python? Right? And if you're a tech guy, you're like, you don't know what Python is, and you're selling me AI, you you lost all your credibility, right?

Milan Batinich 24:36
Well, and and and Paul, uh, before I throw it back to Amanda here, um, I remember one of the orgs I was working for, uh, I had somebody interested in an RPA model for automation. Before going into that discovery call, I had to Google what is RPA. Then I watched a YouTube video on explain to me what RPA is because I had no clue. I'm like, I got 20 minutes before this discovery call and I have no idea what I'm selling.

Paul Smith 24:58
Well, I well, I'll tell you even worse, right? I'm the manager and I have a tech background, but I had no understanding of what RPA was. So I'm sitting on the call with ChatGPT in one window, trying to make sure that as he asks questions, I'm looking at the ChatGPT conversation and see if I can answer it. I mean, you know, you no one ever told me though what RPA was, and I never heard word with anybody who used it before, right? And but I said the word. You know, we can help you with RPA. And I'm thinking, oh my God, please don't ask me any question. And of course they did, you know. Yeah.

Amanda Quinn 25:39
Oh, that's so awful. And like all of this just it like hurts my soul, like just thinking about sales and how personally reticent I am to want to do sales, but like to go into a sales conversation and feel so ill prepared. Isn't that the worst?

Amanda Quinn 25:58
Oh, it is, it is, and it is how do you it's absolutely the worst trying to project confidence when you're completely masking and feeling like a complete fraud? Like, that's awful. That sounds so terrible.

Milan Batinich 26:10
Yeah, talk about imposter syndrome, like the overwhelming feeling of imposter syndrome.

Paul Smith 26:14
And then add on top of that, you're getting paid, you're not getting paid crap for that sale.

Paul Smith 26:20
I mean, if it's a technology sale, you're not making any money off of this, right? So you're maybe gonna make 50 bucks, right? And and you have to sit through that embarrassment. And so what do you think people are gonna do? They're gonna shy away from talking about it, right? And yeah, so it's it's kind of a conundrum, right? It's how do you how do you work your way through that? And organizations aren't looking at that. Your business model has to change. You have to use some different ideas, some different metrics, value-based pricing. I talked to the CEO once and they said, you know what, you're spending a hundred thousand dollars a line item now. Give me a percentage of every dollar I save you, right? From that amount. And he was replacing himself. Like, like Bill Gates said, you know, I'm I'm going into my dreams, but Bill Gates always said, obsolete yourself before somebody obsoletes you. Completely agree.

Amanda Quinn 27:19
Completely agree, yeah. You don't want to be surprised, right?

Paul Smith 27:23
Right, exactly. And if your model hasn't changed, yeah, you know what? You got these 15 QA managers. Sorry, you can't afford 15 QA managers anymore. You only can afford five, and you got to use the tools that are available to make up for that, right? So you lower your cost structure so that you accommodate the new world. You don't keep trying to act like it doesn't exist. So I don't want to talk about it. Or it's not, you know, you see all these articles about, well, you know, contact centers aren't good at implementing these new technologies. Well, they better get good at it because it's not an option.

Amanda Quinn 27:58
Yeah. And so this is what a lot of why I really advocate for BPOs to get so clear on the market that they're going after so that it makes all of these subsequent decisions so much easier. Because when you're really clear about the that that market, that industry, the problem that you're solving, knowing what is the right tech stack becomes more obvious. Knowing what how to kind of rethink. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at too, is just like there needs to be like a bit of curiosity now in this for BPOs in this current environment where they're rethinking their offerings. Like you're no longer just delivering butts and seats and execution-oriented work. Like we know that is going away. You know, it may not go away immediately in every single use case, but long term that is going away. And so you either need to be, you need to be solving the problem more holistically, whether that's with humans and technology and or humans tweaking the technology if it's technology first, but you need to be having your humans be moving up the value chain where they're doing more brain-intensive strategic work, implementation type projects so that you're continuing to show your clients that you're keeping their best interest in mind and like to that obsolete yourself. Like you want to be bringing to them, hey, we have found a better way to do it better. We're gonna cut your cost by another third. And what you're gonna be able to, if we're, I we think you reinvest that savings in this additional capability that you mentioned at the last QBR, we think it can self-fund itself. And now your clients are gonna get bing, bing, b, whatever it is. Like that's the value, right? That's the value in partnership that I think BPOs, if they um kind of take the reins of this moment, can really capitalize on. Right.

Paul Smith 29:52
Yeah, I think they do. But yeah, and you have to do that throughout the organization, right? So you have to you have to look at every organization within, right? Every function in your organization and say, are is that part of our organization ready? Right. If they're not, what do we have to do to get them ready? Right. How do we get our, you know, how do we get our ops manager to be looking at the future in figuring out how to implement new things and new thinking in the contact centers, right? Not waiting for the customer to bring it up, that you're looking at it and saying, here's some op, you know, and I think I'm reading a book, I forget the name, trust and trust and inspire, right? And it talks about command and control versus trust and inspire when you're managing your people, right? And I think that the BPO space is then very much a command and control environment, right? Where I tell you what to do and you go do it. I don't really want a whole lot of input from you on new ways to do it. This is the way we do it, you go do it. And in this world, it's different. It's more, you got to trust your people that they're gonna go out and do their job, that they're gonna do the investigation, that they're gonna come up with new ideas, and you need to accept those ideas and implement them in your contact centers, right? Because, like I've said to you, Amanda, one of the great best things about working with you has been you're younger than me. And it does matter. You you have a perspective on things, right? You have a comfort with things that I may not have a comfort with yet, right? You're the audience, right? I mean, not too many people are trying to sell with grandfathers, right? They're they're trying to sell to people like you and Milan who are raising families, right? You have a different perspective, and that perspective is important in building this new future that we're looking at. I hate to say it, but there's too many. This uh there uh when I'm at BPO conferences, there's too many people my age. And that's what I miss about being in the technology world, was my mind was always active because I was always being challenged by younger people's knowledge that I didn't un that I didn't understand. And so I had to learn that that keeps me current, right? And I think that mindset has to be a part of what the BPOs are looking for. How do we infuse more youth into the market, not to take your job away, but to make you more relevant?

Amanda Quinn 32:21
Yeah. So almost it's like, yeah, no, I would agree. And I think I say this a lot. Like, I I'm not a long-term BPO insider. Like I only came to the industry six years ago via the company that I was, the startup that I was with, kind of happened to find itself in the BPO space. Um and I think that kind of fresh thinking that you're talking about may require people from outside the industry to step in and and start asking questions of like, why is it being done this way? Why challenge the norms? Because this is a moment that so much is shifting. And I think that reticence or kind of holding on to the status quo, I think could hinder BPOs that are really mired in and doing things the way that they've always been done.

Paul Smith 33:04
Right, right. Which also makes you kind of wonder is the consolidation the right way to go? This is a conversation I have with myself all the time, right? It's like, okay, so my your revenue structure is based on butts and seats, right? That's what you've been doing. You have some people that are really good at doing that. There are some people out there that that's what they're looking for, right? But are those the same people who should be selling this new paradigm? Should that be a should that be your opportunity to infuse new thinking into your organization? Is by saying, hey, we're gonna have this hybrid solution that is a combination of people and and technology. And you bring in people who have that sort of a background, who know how to talk to the C, people who are comfortable there, people who have networks there, not necessarily that's who's gonna be your customer base, but they have an understanding. They're there when they look at their LinkedIn, they see articles and things like that, because it's it is different. And and I hate to say this, but the BPO has been a simple sale. This is a complex sale, it's a solution sale. And my history tells me that a lot of people who can do one aren't very good at doing the other. Not discounting, you know, the simple sales, and simple, I don't mean, you know, you know, I don't mean to say anything negative about BPO salespeople. That's yeah, you know what I mean. I'm just saying it's a different, it's a different deal, right? It's like you're talking to different functions at different levels in order to get stakeholders to all buy in, which is a lot different than in the BPO space, especially these days, right? Where you're you're the RFP chase, right? Oh, I got an RFP, I'm gonna respond to it. Well, you know what? The decision's already been made by time to get the RFP. So you're just really responding, right? Or you're talking to a customer, and I say, Well, I have five customer service agents now, and my company's not doing very good. So do you have five you could replace them with? That, you know, it's not it's a different kind of thing. It's not a solution sale, it's more, it's more of a product sale and a cost sale, right? And this new world is not going to be like that. At least I don't think so.

Amanda Quinn 35:18
Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. I really like that framework, and that's where I've landed too, is that BPOs really need to evolve into that consultative sales process, which is a completely different beast and mired with questions. And I personally am still trying to figure it out. Well, I know we're running low on time here, and so I want to kind of bring it in for a landing. Paul, as you're advising BPOs on kind of making this shift, where do you typically recommend that they start? If they're, you know, we're we've talked on a lot of different areas that are impacting. Where do you recommend that they kind of begin this transformation journey?

Paul Smith 35:58
Um, clarity. I think where they begin is what is the vision that you're trying to reach? And what is your strategy for achieving that vision? Because I think that too often it starts with sales. Sales is the end of the game, not the beginning. And so I think it's important that the strategy be clear, right? The plan for how you're going to implement be clear, that your salespeople are trained and that you minimize the clutter, right? Don't ask them to sell five different products to five different industries. Say we're going after this industry with this with this approach and and imbue them with that. But if you don't have a good plan strategy and the other departments aren't on board, then you leave your salespeople on an island. They can't be successful. So I think it's a top-down thing. I don't think you can start with sales, but you have to be thinking at the end of this game, salespeople have to go out and make this message clear. Am I giving them enough ammunition to be able to do that well? And I think with multiple BPOs today, you you're not you're not giving the salespeople everything they need to be able to have a successful conversation. So that's where I that's why I say you have to start. It's not about you know consultative sales training, right? Yeah, that's something that you're probably gonna need, but you gotta know what your consultative is trying to sell first before that's gonna work.

Amanda Quinn 37:34
That makes sense. Makes perfect sense. I'll shut up now. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This was wonderful. We really appreciate you sharing all of your insights and wisdom with our audience. If anybody wants to get in touch with you, Paul, what's the best way for them to reach you?

Paul Smith 37:50
Probably email Paul Paul at Smith Slaughter.

Amanda Quinn 37:54
Slaughter S-L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R.com. Perfect. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Paul. It was a pleasure. And I hope everyone has a great rest of their day.

Paul Smith 38:05
All right. Bye-bye.