Building a Better BPO: The Engagement Imperative

Amanda Quinn 0:00
Welcome to Build a Better BPO, the podcast where we help business process outsourcers break free from the one size fits all approach and build stronger, more profitable businesses.

Milan Batinich 0:10
If you're a BPO leader looking to improve margins, reduce employee churn, and create long-term client relationships, you're in the right place.

Amanda Quinn 0:19
I'm Amanda Quinn, principal at Quinn Growth Advisors. I help BPOs refine their positioning, market their expertise, and move beyond the outdated labor arbitrage model.

Milan Batinich 0:30
And I'm Milan Batinich, CEO of Milan Motivates. I help BPOs and CX leaders build stronger, happier teams by improving employee engagement and retention.

Amanda Quinn 0:41
Each episode will bring you insights, strategies, and real-world examples to help you stand out in the BPO space, attract better fit clients, and build a more sustainable business.

Milan Batinich 0:53
We're cutting through the noise with actionable takeaways. No fluff, no vague theories, just proven strategies from industry experts and BPO leaders who are making it happen.

Amanda Quinn 1:03
So if you're ready to build a better BPO, let's dive in. And we're here today on our first inaugural episode of the Build a Better BPO podcast. And Milan is going to kick us off talking about employee engagement. So, Milan, why is employee engagement important? Why should BPOs be thinking about this?

Milan Batinich 1:32
I mean, there's so many reasons. Reason number one, I mean, if we are in a BPO, if those listening or watching are uh operating and running a BPO, humans are at the forefront. Really any business, humans are at the forefront. Largest cost in most businesses, if not all businesses, is the cost of your human beings. And managing employees the way they need to be managed and treating human beings the way human beings should be treated should be your top priority. Um there's been so many studies done that show that you know high employee engagement equals higher profits. The bottom line gets larger. Uh high employee engagements equals you know popular places to work. You get better employees, better quality employees. So I mean, a lot of reasons, but if we were just to boil it down to the simplest term, we should treat humans like what they are humans. So that's why it's important. And uh and you know, average BPO attrition rate is a hundred percent. So hopefully there's some insights we can talk about today that'll lower that to a lot less than a hundred.

Amanda Quinn 2:39
Yeah, absolutely, because that uh the overhead of having to find all new staff every single year is an operational nightmare, um, despite uh in addition to the human toll of training people in and out. Um, so what should BPOs do? If you're uh a call center leader or a BPO, what should they be doing or what should they be thinking about um as they want to reduce attrition and improve employee engagement?

Milan Batinich 3:08
Yeah, so several things. First one I want to start off with is the platinum rule.

Amanda Quinn 3:12
Okay.

Milan Batinich 3:12
So uh well, a lot of people live by the golden rule, which do you know what the golden rule is, Amanda?

Amanda Quinn 3:18
Uh if I remember from the nursery years, it's uh do unto others as you want them to do unto you, or treat others the way that you want them to treat you.

Milan Batinich 3:27
Right, right. So platinum rule takes it a step further. So platinum rule states treat others the way they want to be treated. So instead of treating others the way you want to be treated, treat them how they want to be treated. And so I think what we're gonna talk about today is different ways that you can do that, different ways that you can learn how other people want and need to be treated. And you know, I think the first step is that it starts with self-awareness. So, self-awareness, a lot of people get it wrong. A lot of people think self-awareness is understanding, you know, okay, who am I? And really they forget the second part, which can be even more important than the first part. So, self-awareness, there's two aspects to it. Number one, understanding who you are, definitely important, right? Understanding what you need, understanding what you want, all of that. But then the second piece is understanding how who you are impacts other people. And I think that's where a lot of business leaders, you know, they kind of forget that second part. They're like, well, I understand who I am, but then they don't understand how their styles are impacting others, whether it's their decision-making style, their communication style, um, just whatever it might be, just the way they come across to others. So that's really what self-awareness is: understanding who you are and then understanding how your styles impact other people and being aware of how your styles impact other people.

Amanda Quinn 4:50
Okay. Are you saying um that leaders should be thinking or uh changing the way that they behave or the way that they show up at work to um meet their employees where they are, or how how do they go about doing that?

Milan Batinich 5:06
Yeah, you're jumping ahead, but that's exactly right.

Amanda Quinn 5:08
Okay.

Milan Batinich 5:09
So no, you're you're good. You're good. I think uh I think people can be you can still be your authentic self, and I'm sure we'll have a podcast about authenticity uh sooner or later. But you can still be your authentic self, but you can adapt for your employees or adapt to what your employees need versus being so authentic, so authentically you that you come across in a way that uh turns off your employees or disengages your employees. So you can still be authentic, but still adapt to their needs. Like, for instance, um, you know, I think about myself, I'm uh highly extroverted, assertive, uh, all those types of things. Uh but if I'm working with an employee who is maybe less extroverted and needs more guidance or reassurance, I can adapt and give them that reassurance. I don't need to just, you know, be super assertive or aggressive with each and every employee or each and every person. I can adapt based on what they need. If I understand that, okay, hey, they need reassurance uh in the work they're doing and they need more stability and calmness, then I just need to adapt to what uh exactly they need. And by doing that, you have a more engaged employee because then that employee is being treated the way they need to be treated.

Amanda Quinn 6:28
Okay. Okay. Um that makes sense. And how how do you know what your employees need?

Milan Batinich 6:36
You know, I wish I could say it's rocket science, but it's not.

Amanda Quinn 6:40
Yeah.

Milan Batinich 6:41
It's really communication. So figuring out, asking them, talking to them, uh, and understanding what they need. You know, there's there's four primary in psychology, there's four primary motivating drives. The drive to uh acquire and achieve, thinking, you know, uh when I talked about assertiveness or aggressiveness, uh think about dominance, how dominant somebody is, um, or how harmonious they are. You know, if you're looking at the opposite side of dominance, it'd be harmonious. So the drive to acquire and achieve, the another one is the drive to bond and belong. So how socially driven the person is? Do they have a high drive for social interaction, or do they prefer to work alone by themselves? Um, the challenge to or the drive to challenge and comprehend, you know, how much stability does someone need? Somebody with uh a high amount uh of that drive needs a lot of stability in their work. They're really good with uh methodical, stable work. Whereas somebody opposite of them, uh Amanda, I'm looking at you and I, we're we're low in that drive. So we thrive in an environment with a lot of variety, we thrive in an environment where we're just winging it. So so having uh um a formal podcast setup could be a struggle for our personalities, um for our behaviors. And then the last one, the drive to define and defend, how formal somebody is. Uh think of it as how much data somebody needs in order to make a decision. So if somebody has uh high, high drive to define and defend, they need a lot of data. They need a lot of details, and they have a high attention to detail. Whereas people that are opposite, again, looking at the two of us on this podcast, um, they have a low amount of our listeners too.

Amanda Quinn 8:31
Yeah, CEOs.

Milan Batinich 8:33
A lot of CEOs have I don't want to say a low attention to detail, but they don't need a lot of details to make a decision. They'd rather uh jump uh without looking to see what's down below and uh and figuring things out on the way down. You know, you jump off a cliff thinking there's water that you're gonna dive into and swim into, and maybe you don't see water, the water's not as deep. So you're making calculations on your way down. So you're making decisions during the process where somebody with high attention detail they want to make sure everything is done. All the I's are dotted, all the T's are crossed before they make that jump. Where a lot of CEOs, a lot of leap business leaders, ourselves will jump and then while we're in midair, we'll start making calculations and figuring things out along the way.

Amanda Quinn 9:24
Yeah, okay. This this all makes a lot of sense. And I can see how if you're managing somebody who especially is different than you, um, so like you you gave the example um that you know you and I don't need a lot of details, and you and I are more um crave variety. But if somebody is reporting to us that needs um that stability and needs to have wants to come in every day and know exactly what their day is gonna look like and needs to hear um all of the why. Why are we doing this? What's happening? What are the downstream effects? What have we thought through? What are the who else is involved in the decision? They need to know all of that to feel comfortable with new initiatives or whatnot. If we're not aware of that and then we're not giving them that information, I can see how that would cause a lot of anxiety or stress to people below us when we're just saying, you know, just trust us. Like we've we've done the research, I've had conversations, I'm feeling that this is the right direction we need to go in. Just trust me. And meanwhile, I'm I'm inadvertently causing panic in my employees. Is that right?

Milan Batinich 10:35
That's exactly right. So we well, as I mentioned, the four drives in human psychology, those drives will predict specific needs within people. So, like the example I gave earlier, somebody that has a low um drive to acquire and achieve, they need a lot of reassurance and they need harmony, they need to feel like they're on that team. So, understanding that's one of their needs, because of their needs, they'll exhibit specific behaviors. And so, to your point, if you have somebody that needs that harmony, needs that reassurance, um, needs to understand their daily task each and every day when they get into work. If you have that type of employee and you know they need that, and you're just like, hey, today we're just gonna wing it, you know, you figure out what you think is the highest priority for your work today. I'm not gonna give you any direction or instruction. You just I know you've never done this type of work before, you just need to figure it out yourself. For somebody like that, they're going to exhibit those behaviors you just talked about. They're gonna be very anxious, so they're gonna have anxiety. And anytime somebody is not being managed or led the way they need to be, it becomes exhausting. So when when you're in a role, when you're doing work that is a good fit for who you are based on your drives, you become very highly engaged. You are because you're doing the work you enjoy, that's a good fit for who you naturally are. And because of that, it energizes you. When you know, if I take that example, that person that needs that harmony, needs that reassurance, needs direction in the morning, and I don't give them that, because of that anxiety, they become exhausted because it's not a good fit for who they naturally are, and over time they become disengaged. And a disengaged employee eventually updates their resume and looks for a new job where they will be treated the way they need to be treated, or they'll be working in a job that is a good fit for who they are, so it won't drain their energy, they won't become exhausted or anxious, and they'll be able to be successful in that new role.

Amanda Quinn 12:44
This is giving me such an aha that uh well, one, I'm realizing that I feel like I need I owe an apology to a lot of the the people I managed when I was an early manager and awareness of of or understanding of this. Um I'm very sorry. Um, but secondly, it's giving me um such an aha because I've always thought that employee engagement was really tied to the role. Like, are you perfunctly per performing functions that you enjoy, tasks that you like doing, are generally feeling positive about the company, and therefore that's your engagement. But as I think about my own career and my own work experiences, actually where I've felt the most engaged has been managers who have managed me in the way that I've actually needed them to manage. So I remember when you and I first met, um, Milan, and I told you that I I my background is in finance, that I worked on Wall Street, that I was um reported to the CFO and led the whole financial planning um for my for my business. And you were shocked because given my profile, that would not match at all. But the reason I liked that job and what kept me going and staying in it for so many years was that my boss, the CFO, gave me the reins and trusted me and gave me plenty of room to figure things out. He did not micromanage me, he completely trusted me and I got all the um the variety that I needed. Um and and when I it it's clear now to me because when I left that firm and did the exact same role at another firm where I was not managed that way, and it was very, this is what you're doing, and I had somebody who was kind of sitting on top of me and um checking to make sure I had done XYZ task, I wanted to blow my brains out. And so this is um a really big light bulb moment for me here.

Milan Batinich 14:50
Well, I I'm glad. I'm glad it's a light bulb moment, and and that's completely true. So, yeah, so even though I was shocked when you told me what the type of work you did, to your point, your manager let you do your own thing, which your type of profile needs that, and so because of that, you found joy and happiness and energy in the work that you were doing, um, which is which is vital. And and really, or ultimately, there's there's four forces. So uh let me back up. So IO psychologists um out of Harvard University, and then also with a company called the Predictive Index, which we'll have to talk about on a later podcast. Um, but these IO psychologists found that there's four forces uh or four causes to employee disengagement. And so the first one is job. So is the employee in the right job? And if they're not doing the right type of job, then they are gonna become disengaged. So the first force of disengagement is poor job fit. Um, it's just not gonna be a good fit. If you, Amanda, if you said to me, Milan, hey, starting next Monday, I found the perfect job for you. I'm like, great, what is it? And you're like, you're gonna be a librarian where you're just going to check in books and you're gonna file books away. I'd be like, Amanda, you don't know me. Like that would I would be very disengaged in that type of role as a librarian. Now, somebody opposite of me would love that type of job and they would thrive in that type of role. Um so that's the first one. The second um force or cause of disengagement is manager, so a poor manager fits. It's not so much that the managers or the employee is a poor fit, it's really the manager's not adapting. What we talked about in the beginning. If the manager is not adapting to what the employee needs, the employee becomes disengaged because they're not being treated based on the platinum rule, on how they need and want to be treated. Uh, the third is the team. So anytime you add a new person to a team or you or one somebody from the team leaves the organization or the department, it changes the complete team dynamic. So because of that, if the team dynamic changes and maybe more work is put on each employee, or maybe the person that left the department or the organization was a great friend to somebody else and helped them thrive in the work they did, because that team has changed, that employee can become disengaged. So keeping your keeping a pulse as a leader, as a BPO leader, keeping a pulse on uh the teams that you're building and the departments and the programs, the campaigns, who who's on each campaign and how they work well together, whether they're in a brick and mortar or remote. Um, and then the fourth is organizational culture. So I'm not gonna dive too deep on that one. That could be a whole episode on its own talking about a culture. Uh but I think a lot of organizations confuse perks as culture, where they're like, hey, we have, you know, I I used to have a client in uh here in Wisconsin that they're like, I'm like, tell me about your culture. They're like, we have beanbag chairs, we have scooters, we have beer and wine on tap, and free lunch every Friday. I'm like, okay, that those are great perks. Like, tell me about your culture. They're like, we just did. I'm like, that's not culture. So especially with the up and coming generations, the younger generations, what's really important to them is the why, the vision of the company. Why, like, what's the purpose of the company? Yes, the company's purpose may be to help its clients answer calls or chats, you know, or SMS, uh, emails, whatever it might be, whatever channel it might be, uh, or whatever industry it might be in at that BPO. But what is the vision? What is the mission? How is the organization making a positive impact? And I say younger generation, because a lot of times we see within BPOs, especially tier one level opportunities, typically it's going to be a younger generation doing that type of work uh until they're upskilled or you know, move up within the organization. So, because of that you know, not being able to express to your tier one or level one agents any type of your purpose or vision or mission as an organization, it's gonna they're gonna struggle. They're gonna be looking for a another BPO to work at that you know gives back to their community or or makes an impact on the world in some type of way. So the last uh factor or cause of employee disengagement is a cult is uh not a good culture fit. So making sure that you're expressing that to those agents will help retain agents. You know, I I've even seen agents stay at a company because because of the culture, because they liked the way they were treated, they liked the positive impact the organization had on their community, on their state, on their country. And so it was a big enough impact that the employee was like, I don't really like the work, but they're making a huge difference for this type for this certain sect of people. So because of that, I'm staying.

Amanda Quinn 19:57
Okay, and I can see how, or tell me if I'm wrong, a lot of what you just mentioned, those four forces of disengagement, I can see how those can be addressed through hiring, right? Like you can probably assess fit during hiring, making it really clear what your culture is up front, let it so that they can decide if that resonates with them or if it doesn't. Um what else uh would your how else can um BPO leaders be proactive about bringing the right people into the roles or making sure that things are set up from the beginning to ensure high employee engagement?

Milan Batinich 20:34
Um from a 30,000-foot view, making sure that your uh job advertisements are inclusive, um, making sure that your interview process is concise, uh hiring, onboarding, which I know we'll talk through uh in a different podcast, but uh, you know, just making sure that whole candidate experience, you know, we talk a lot about uh client experience, we talk about employee experience once they're trained and out of their nesting period. But a lot of organizations really miss the mark since majority of attrition happens in the first 90 days of employment, they really miss the mark on the candidate experience. You know, what about from the time the candidate sends their resume in? The organizations, BPOs, need to care about what that experience is like for the candidate from the time they submit their resume or complete their job application all the way through to interview, that interview process to job offer to onboarding, um, how they're treated with HR to training to nesting and beyond. Really, it's it's really looking at the whole human experience from pre hire to retire. I think a lot of organizations are like, all right, now we're gonna care because you made it to day one of training. Well, what about the last 30 days or sixty days of the whole uh you know recruiting process and onboarding and everything like that? That's even Equally important, if not more important, because if if you fail there, but then you're like, hey, we hit it out of the park during training, you know. Well, we need to hit it out of the park even for the candidate experience before they're hired. And so just identifying through your interview process, through behavioral interviewing, you know, making sure that the candidate is the right fit, making sure that it'll be a good fit with the manager, the team dynamics, culture, and communicating that. It's amazing how many BPOs do not thoroughly communicate with new agents or new employees coming on board.

Amanda Quinn 22:36
Um, and and how do you assess that? So clearly there's um I feel like a lot of in information or interviews are gonna be asking about their skill set, asking about their experience. Once you've deemed that that's they're good enough and they're ready to come on board and you're gonna extend the offer, what do you generally recommend in terms of getting that understanding of their profile and like how you would manage them or how you the company needs to adapt to meet them where they are?

Milan Batinich 23:06
Like, are you asking like what products I would recommend that they use for profiling or like behavioral profiling?

Amanda Quinn 23:13
Some examples maybe of of behavioral profiling to do.

Milan Batinich 23:24
There are, however, a lot of the other ones. So there's 1200 behavioral profiling assessments in the market today. Out of 1200, there's only four that are validated for hiring. Predictive Index is one of the four. But companies can use other ones like DISC, Myers, Briggs. Those it says right on their website, these aren't validated for hiring. Meaning with Predictive Index, for example, you can make a hiring decision based on somebody's profile without any disparate impacts on the back end, uh, where it's like biased or anything like that. Uh, disks disc says right on their front page of their web page of their website, this tool cannot be used for hiring because it hasn't been statistically validated. Um, so I I mean I've used specifically Predictive Index since 2013. Um that's the one that's is my favorite, and I like it because it's all-encompassing from pre-hire to retire, uh, and it's statistically validated to be able to use for uh making hiring decisions. Um I look at it as a tool in the toolbox, you know, I don't base all decisions just on that, but it gives a lot of insights into okay, hey, this employee, maybe from a behavioral profile perspective, isn't a 10 out of 10 on paper, but they have the experience and I understand who they are based on their profile, which tells me how I need to manage them. And so because of that, I can adapt to them. Uh, I even think back to, you know, um, as I had contractors at Milan Motivates, um, most of those people weren't based on their behavioral profile, weren't even like eight out of ten, nine out of ten, based on personality. But they had a drive, they loved the company culture that we were building, um, and they were great in terms of past experience. So, really, it's a lot of you know, looking at uh what we call the head, the heart, and the briefcase. Head is their behavioral profile, cognitive ability. Um briefcase is their work experience, their education, their skill set, which changes over time. And then heart is their own culture and their own values, uh, their own morals, things like that. Um, so really you got to look at the whole person when making hiring decisions, not just looking at their cognitive ability or just their uh personality or behavioral profile or anything like that, or just looking at their experience. Really, you got to look at the whole person when making those hiring decisions. Now, some BPOs may say we're hiring 500 people a year, a thousand people a year. How are we supposed to do that? Well, it's gonna take work, but that's why a tool like Predictive Index would be very helpful or something similar. Um, but yeah, it's gonna take investment, it's gonna take work. But if you can lower, I mean, I I saw one contact center in Austin, Texas lower their annual attrition from 95% down to 14% just by looking at the whole person, looking at their cognitive ability, behavioral profile, looking at their briefcase, you know, their skill set, their education, their past experience, and looking at their heart, you know, what what is it they want to get out of their career, and focusing on that. And because of that, uh, they trip what tripled their revenue in the first 18 months and yeah, lowered their attrition from it was 94.9 down to 14.5, I think, uh percent annual attrition. So they made a big jump by looking at the whole person versus just, you know, we need a butt in the seat, so let's just hire first come, first serve, whoever we can. And uh they were able to find success that way by looking at the whole person.

Amanda Quinn 26:58
Wow, that's incredible. That's those are such great results. Um I can see how this would be a really big mindset shift if you were in that butts in seats. We just are kind of factory, uh sort of a factory of a hiring machine, getting them in, getting them trained, getting them on the line and and producing as fast as possible, um, to seeing them as humans, as people, as um people worth investing time in. It I can see how it would be there's a bit of a leap that we're we're asking BPO leaders to take to be willing to invest into that culture shift because that is where culture is created, right? Those moments of um, you know, somebody coming in and not feeling like they're just a cog in the wheel and they're feeling like my manager actually cared about me and seems to be changing the way that this person is interacting with me based on what they know I need or what matters to me, what drives me, what behaviors I need to see from them. I can see how that would be a really transformative experience from an employee standpoint, but also very rewarding from the manager standpoint and the whole organization. And now we have folks that are sticking around, and like you said earlier, the team isn't getting dissolved and and players aren't getting swapped in and out, and we're not constantly feeling like I don't know, it's whack-a-mole and people are just getting dropping like flies. Um, so that's really exciting. Um, I appreciate you sharing all this with our audience, Milan. Um, you're so full of wisdom on this front. Anything else to add before we wrap it up?

Milan Batinich 28:43
No, no, I think that's uh I think that's it. I well, I guess one thing I would add is, and maybe we can have this as a takeaway for for our audience. Um, you know, because some people have told me in the past, you know, that's great to be self-aware. How do I become self-aware? Seems to be a question. Like, how do I really understand myself? Like there's so many self-help books that you can read and stuff like that. Um, but I would say anybody that's watching or listening, I mean, if they want to complete a free five-minute behavioral assessment to really understand who they are and become more self-aware. I'm sure when we post this or something, we can have a link.

Amanda Quinn 29:21
We'll put in a link in the show notes.

Milan Batinich 29:22
Yeah, in the show notes. There you go. We can put a link in there, and everybody listening and watching can uh, you know, takes five, five or six minutes, you can do uh and you would get your results, do a take a behavioral assessment and uh really helps. It's a good step in the right direction into understanding who you are and understanding how you come across to others.

Amanda Quinn 29:42
Yep. Okay, so that's a free Predictive Index self-assessment that we're gonna put in the show notes. So feel free to check that out, and I will vouch for it. I um I've done my own assessment and one of the first times Milan and I met, and I found this was the most accurate tool that I've ever used. Um, you know, even just the personal Enneagrams and Myers Briggs, like those, those felt um they did not feel like they encompassed me as a person, but every single person I've even made my husband take uh Predictive Index uh Predictive Index assessment, and so many of our fights are boiled down to just he he needs a high, he has a high D and I have a very low D, and how uh the number, the amount of communication we both need and information, and um it's just a really, really good tool. So I I completely give my uh I want to just add my testimonial for it. So you should definitely take Milan up on that offer for the free assessment. And uh thank you all for tuning in.

Milan Batinich 30:44
Thank you all.